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Proposals to eliminate half of peninsular Halifax and Dartmouth schools scrapped; now just a quarter to go
EDUCATION LINDSAY JONES The Daily News
Last updated at 7:00 AM on 07/02/08
Prince Andrew High is one of the schools that could be affected when the Halifax Regional School Board reduces the number of schools in Halifax and Dartmouth. (Sandy Chase photo)
School-board consultants are withdrawing proposals that could have led to the closing of up to half the schools on the peninsula and in Dartmouth. The Halifax Regional School Board’s lead consultant said she’s focusing on keeping the current model of elementary, junior high and high schools in a proposal that will result in the closing of only about a quarter of schools, but add a high school to Eastern Passage.
“(It) results in smaller schools generally across the board at the P to 6 level and the junior-high level. And that’s important to everybody,” Maureen O’Shaughnessy said.
10-year project
The move follows a series of public meetings for communities to give input into the board’s 10-year capital-planning project, Imagine Our Schools. More details will be presented at next week’s final public consultations. O’Shaughnessy said the door is still open to have Grade Primary to 9 schools in some communities, such as Springvale and outlying parts of Dartmouth.
The more focused direction comes after participants at recent public meetings showed a lack of interest in two proposals - ones that would have resulted in the most school closings, she said. “(They) are not even worth pursuing anymore because people didn’t take up the idea and they pretty much talked about the things they were interested in,” O’Shaughnessy said.
Still in the running is a proposal that would see the peninsula go from 17 schools to 12 by 2018. Dartmouth would go from 44 schools to 34 by the same date. O’Shaughnessy said there will likely be even fewer closings when more specific details emerge. In most cases, the overall plan will recommend retaining, not rebuilding, existing schools, she added.
Any recommendation for closing would be subject to the province’s mandated year-long review.
O’Shaughnessy said she also plans to address Halifax parents’ discontent about the junior highs at next week’s meeting. At the last one, parents said they felt that two, 500-student junior highs serving the peninsula did not reflect their wishes for walkable, community-based schools. O’Shaughnessy said one more junior high will be added to the proposal.
“Three would deliver the program and respond to the desire for neighbourhood schools,” she said. “We could not recommend more than three in terms of (what’s) a feasible size of a junior high.”
The consultants will gather more feedback from the public at meetings Feb. 12 in Dartmouth and Feb. 13 in Halifax.
A master plan, which will include an implementation schedule and priority list, will come to the board for information Feb. 27.
HRM by Design compatibility
Some community members have raised questions about how in sync the proposals are with HRM by Design, the city’s redevelopment plan for the peninsula.
O’Shaughnessy said her group took those projections into account and the master plan will be “future proofed.” She said it will recommend keeping specific school sites in certain areas and reassessing development over the next five years.
Howard Windsor, the man in charge of the school board, is expected to make a decision on the master plan March 26.
ljones@hfxnews.ca
07/02/08
Comments:
Deb from NS writes: Education is probably the most important thing in a civilized society. This consultant wants to close down schools and make mega schools with hundreds of students, where outside the city limits maybe out by Dartmouth Crossing.OMG Will this mean an increase in bussing, a cut in teachers or an increase salary for administrators with less funding to the schools? I hope Howard Windsor knows what he is doing. A community is more than just residential.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 8:08 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Laura from Nova Scotia writes: Bigger is not always better. Halifax Regional School Board need to be more forward thinking. What will these mega schools do to students, should be the question not how it will help their bottom line. In bigger schools students get lost and there is less time for specialized instruction. Teachers get burned out and students spend god knows how many hours of waisted time on a bus. When will the focus of education shift back to students and the importance of their education. The public school system is a service not a business!
Posted 07/02/2008 at 8:17 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
peter james from halifax, ns writes: i think a quote is on order
HRM by Design, the city’s redevelopment plan for the peninsula
key words here are the plan for the peninsula. when are these people going to realize that the HRM is more than just the peninsula. When are the rest of the people going to realize that the days of the neighbourhood school are over.
people want a school in every neighbourhood, better roads more police, more nurses, more doctors, etc,etc,etc.
its just that nobody wants to pay more taxes to fund them. then they d@mn the government for not being able to provide all their wants without raising taxes. Enrollments are declining and people are just going to have to get used to the idea of schools closing and consolidating. they have no choice. Laura, you are really reaching with your statements. do you want to pay more to keep these schools open?.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 8:42 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
thinkfirst from ns writes: At a time when all we hear about is cutting down on emissions,the price of gas and how unhealthy are children are lets put more of them on buses . Look at all aspects before making decisions not like the lunch program which has no idea how or where they will find the lunch monitors to supervise or how to pay them.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 8:50 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
JW from Halifax, NS writes: ‘results in smaller schools generally across the board at the P to 6 level and the junior-high level.’
Is this based on the same stellar logic that said if you take 1500 students from QEH, and 1000 from St Pats, you can take care of them with the 1200 student capacity of Citadel High? It’s a small school. Generally.
The problem with consultants is that they always feel they need to make some kind of major recommendation to justify their fees.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 9:16 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Heather from NS writes: I’d like to know where this HRM by Design committee was when they decided to open up 2 high schools next door to each other in Cole Harbour. How exactly do they propose that the only two high schools in Dartmouth (PA and DHS) are to combine, when both schools are above capacity as it is? One school to serve all of Dartmouth is foolishness. I sincerely hope they think this through!
Posted 07/02/2008 at 10:12 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Dan from Dartmouth, ns writes: The only place the Halifax Regional School Board worries about is Halifax
Posted 07/02/2008 at 10:38 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
john from Nova Scotia writes: Peter,
I can’t take the defeat you believe in. Just as I can;t accept what these consultants and bureaucrats are saying. I am simply saying no - they are taking is the wrong direction. But you do have a good understanding about what the people want. We want community schools, better police , better teaching, better hospital services and a more beautiful, creative balanced community. And in the future we’re going to get them by doing two things:
1/ Radically refocusing our tax dollars away from desk sitting bureaucracies and put them toward highly valued street level services and assets.
2/ Ensuring that people in charge of key essential services, like education are directly and swiftly accountable to the people trough democratic process (unlike the consultants and the single man now running our school system).
Nothing is more important to our future than education and we can not afford to go about it this way.
But it’s not just about the future every child only has one chance for a good eduction, one chance to be in grade 7, one chance to learn math. Every citizen with a child in school today wants and needs change and they need it right now.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 10:38 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
TimeTravler 2157.9 from NS writes: If there is anything to be closed its their jobs! Why do they always have to close things? Its no wonder people are moving out west. With these idiots ( & Yes I said Idiots ) running the show, they are slowly closing the curtain! WHY can’t they just leave it the way it is. Its not hurting nobody, but NO, oh NO time to screw it up! PLEASE, PLEASE bring on an election or something to clean house!
Posted 07/02/2008 at 10:47 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
John from NS writes: City of Dartmouth school population :
1970/71 - 18,893
1984/85 - 11,823
2007/08 - 8,203
Don’t have the figures for peninsula Halifax but they probably have a similar decline.
Conclusion : Parents are having fewer children but demand smaller classrooms and mor programmes.
Outcome : Fewer schools in those areas
Solution : More babies needed in the inner cities, cheaper housing to encourage parents to live in inner cities.
Ask Sue Uteck and Sheila Fougere for their solutions to a complex issue.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 11:14 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Jeannette from Nova Scotia writes: thank you John for bringing some perspective to this article. I actually was flip flopping on every comment I was reading - I was for Laura’s then I was for Peter James, then I came to your article. You brought reality to the eyes of everyone here with the numbers.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 11:26 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Peter from Halifax, n.s. writes: These blogs. reflect the commonsense of HRM residents.
Bigger is not better, it is just cheaper and you get what you pay for and education quality is no exception.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 11:48 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
John from NS writes: More numbers.
Halifax primary schools 2007/08
Inglis Steet - 181
Joseph Howe - 111 also has +4 program
leMarchant - 300
Charles Tupper - 258
Springvale - 243
St Catherine’s - 311
St Josephs - 235 also has +4 program
St Mary’s - 116
St Stephens - 217
Wesatmount - 316
For P-9 schools :
Oxford School - 347
St Pat’s Alexandra - 138
For those readers in their 30’s think back to primary & Jr High and think class size & portables. For readers in the suburbs read and dream !
For readers in peninsula Halifax get ready to spell CLOSURE.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 11:54 AM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
d d from d, d writes: Recall the school board.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 12:01 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Angel from NS writes: Larger schools are the wrong way to go. Small schools and small class sizes are fundamental to the relationship of teacher to student. In larger schools the abilty to know the child and understand the his/her particular educational needs is lost in the shuffle. Secondly, with the number of qualified teachers unable to find work in Halifax/Dartmouth, this move recklessly ignores local employment needs.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 12:04 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
John from NS writes: Just to put the numbers in some context.
The poulation of the former City of Dartmouth today is about 61,000 and we have 8,200 school chidren compared with 1971 when we had the same population and almost 19,000 school children. In the two cities we have a small number of children in unused schools and a lot of old people with unavailable care facilities. The Daily News could have done us all a favour by reporting the school numbers and then put them in the context of items such as a new VG hospital costing $500,000,000; replacing very old sewers, renovating old schools or building replacements and of course building recreation facilities. We are not Alberta !
Posted 07/02/2008 at 12:06 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
John from NS writes: Jeanette & Paul go to the following link from HRSB Imagine documents. They have many other graphs with demographic data. http://www.hrsb.ns.ca/files/Downloads/pdf/imagine/Nov%2013%2014%20Community.pdf In 2003/04 the number of kids in Grade primary was 450 and 2007/08 it was down to 325. Info for other grades is all there.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 1:05 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Jay from Halifax writes: Age is an important factor here and I hope will be considered when building these super schools. The elementary aged students should have smaller classrooms and more teacher-student time. By the time they get to high school they should be capable of learning and excelling in a larger school with bigger classrooms. Think about the size of University classrooms! Give them the attention they need when their younger and we wont have to clean up a mess when their older.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 1:16 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Rick from Halifax, NS writes: Jay has hit the nail on the head with his post. I couldn’t agree more.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 1:56 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
george from ns writes: another variable to consider in regards to the individual school numbers at the elementary and JH level is the number the fact that kids live in one area but go to school in another. For example, Oxford JH’s #s are skewed because most kids should be going to Highland Pk or St Pats JH. This is commonplace. The HRSB allows this.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 2:09 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
John from NS writes: Jay, Rick, George : Small primary school is 12 classes with 25 kids (the maximum allwed by the province) total 300 kids.
Or you can have a Primary to Grade -9 school. Consider the savings - Principal, janitor, secretary, heat and utilities. And then put the savings back into the classroom. education is about children not buildings.
To see where kids live go to :
http://www.hrsb.ns.ca/files/Downloads/pdf/imagine/halifax-consult-jan-29.pdf and go to page 13
Posted 07/02/2008 at 3:36 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
john from Nova Scotia writes: I take exactly the opposite form the numbers given. If, as given they are exactly accurate, static or part of a continuing trend it means we need to but that much MORE care into their education.
These kids are the future, they are the engine the heart and soul of our communities. We can’t look at education as something we used to do well in bulk and now can;t do. That is just not the case. Each and every single individual student is a gift and a ticket to our prosperity.
The smaller numbers, if correct, mean that we have a rare opportunity to do even better for them.
I’ll take your math, though it is not sourced, and point out that the population has grown by similar amounts in that time frame. More taxpayers paying more taxes with less demand (in number of students) implies to me that it should be an easy task to be increasing quality of education - not diminishing it.
If your numbers are correct, given the number of teachers out there, we should be able to afford and offer individual tutoring and specialized education for each and every student - not big box schools that every thinking person agrees do not work and are not what we want.
Something just doesn’t add up. Where are our taxes going? Where will our future success come from if not from these very special children?
Posted 07/02/2008 at 3:43 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Laura from Nova Scotia writes: No offense peter james from halifax but that is what I pay taxes for. I have no problem paying taxes when they go to the programs that we as Canadians and Nova Scotians like to pride ourselves on. Not to mention the money that has been cut from the education budget is discusting. If you don’t like paying taxes why don’t you move to the US, I can guarentee you’ll come crawling back in no time and be willing to pay the taxes you complain about now. Get a grip and wake up. If not when you are in a nursing home in your old age NS will be nothing because that is what will happen if the youth of the province do not get the education that they deserve and need to be productive citizens in the future!
Posted 07/02/2008 at 3:51 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
from NS writes: Peter James : The data for enollment on the peninsula is from the HRSB 2007 enrollment figures. The historical data is from the same source and from the Dept of Education. I am not in the habit of dreaming up numbers. You can go to the HRSB website and access many documents for the Imagine schools project. Since when has a primary school of 300 been a ’super’ school. Resources are stretched and some kids are getting a better deal than others yet almost all p[eople talked about Equity at the meetings. The savings should be put to better quality education but you will have to get that commitment from the Province and HRM council.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 3:59 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
john from Nova Scotia writes: The more I think about this the less it makes sense.
If we take all the figures as given:
for Dartmouth for example…
same tax paying population
higher taxes
half as many student
That should equal MORE money and resources per student. If it doesn’t then THAT is the mystery and the problem we have to fix. The schools opening and closing is a shell game Red Herring from the bureaucrats and consultants which distracts us form the real issues.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 5:15 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
john from NS writes: To john from Nova Scotia : go read a school board buget. I do not say that lightly. The Dartmouth numbers are from Board and Dept of Educatiion documents and the older Dartmouth numbers are from a book called ‘Second to none - history of Dartmouth schools’ by Joan Payzant available at the library. My experience includes portable classrooms at Ellenvale Junior High. In 1976 the Liberals approved building a new 28 room High Scool opposite Penhorn Mall but the superintendent told them it was not needed. Go ask your councillor where all the money goes., hint INFLATION.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 5:37 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
Brenda MacDonald from Dartmouth, NS writes: Is there anybody commenting here who went to the Imagine Our School meetings or actually studied the plans on the HRSB website-just wondering?
Posted 07/02/2008 at 8:07 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment
john from NS writes: I have been to several meetings. have talked one on one with several of the consultants and gone through different documents to get more details. I understand what the issues are and also the constraints. I also wonder where all the taxes collected in Dartmouth for education are spent. Ditto for Halifax. You should go to the meetings in Halifax and Dartmouth to get a better perspective.
Posted 07/02/2008 at 8:48 PM | Alert an Editor | Link to comment